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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
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Posted - 2014.06.18 01:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
From where I stand bumping is an aggressive action and should have some effect in line with that.
If, in real life I walked up to you and kept pushing you I wouldn't get away with it. So why is that true here? Let it happen and just build a solution that lets you get your butt beat for it.
Same thing for ganking... who cares if it happens... but in real life if a terrorist on the FBI wanted list was just sitting at a starbucks watching and deciding who he might jump, sooner or later the police would get him BEFORE he killed someone. Something like this needs to be built around ganking... it is simple... live and die by the sword. |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 01:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:From where I stand bumping is an aggressive action and should have some effect in line with that.
If, in real life I walked up to you and kept pushing you I wouldn't get away with it. So why is that true here? Let it happen and just build a solution that lets you get your butt beat for it.
Same thing for ganking... who cares if it happens... but in real life if a terrorist on the FBI wanted list was just sitting at a starbucks watching and deciding who he might jump, sooner or later the police would get him BEFORE he killed someone. Something like this needs to be built around ganking... it is simple... live and die by the sword. If you'd like to argue for hyper realism, can we have the cops show up twenty minutes after a crime is reported like in real life, instead of with omnipotent space police magic?
Did I say hyper-realism? No. I just believe it is a sandbox and we should allow mostly anything. But each action has a cause an effect. And we should use some reality to think of maybe the effects of the cause. So decide to be a ganker and live like what a person like that lives like everywhere.... |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 02:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Did I say hyper-realism? No. I just believe it is a sandbox and we should allow mostly anything. But each action has a cause an effect. And we should use some reality to think of maybe the effects of the cause. So decide to be a ganker and live like what a person like that lives like everywhere....
Ah, so you're a hypocrite, gotcha. You just want realism when it benefits you.
Yeah and I guess you are just trying to be difficult. Nothing here is about a benefit for me or you... if you actually try to see beyond the "exact" words I am using and get the actual message of what I am trying to convey you should be able to understand that I am just talking about a better cause and effect scenario.
Tyberius is closer to understanding my point...
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The problem with this assumed realism is that we don't have much real life frame of reference for what police response time would be like given the technological advances and apparent disparity between capsuleers and concord.
We don't have a frame of exact reference but we could use parallels as examples.
In a relatively safe area a person that has consistently acted like a thief and thug usually just can't sit there enjoying their coffee without receiving the repercussions of their previous actions. So something like that could be applied to our ganking situation and I am sure CCP can find an answer instead of a consistent buff/nerf discussion.
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Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 02:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
In a relatively safe area a person that has consistently acted like a thief and thug usually just can't sit there enjoying their coffee without receiving the repercussions of their previous actions.
Capsuleers aren't "people". They're demigods. The game's lore is littered with references about how they are above almost any law. The only authority they answer to is CONCORD. And CONCORD exists solely to prevent them from making such war upon one another as it spills out into the empires. They don't care if we steal, lie and cheat. They don't care if we murder one another, they are just required to punish each individual act of outright hostility. After that, they don't care. This is noticeable because they can't attack us ourselves. Just our ships. The pods are off limits to CONCORD, even they don't have that power. Quote:
So something like that could be applied to our ganking situation and I am sure CCP can find an answer instead of a consistent buff/nerf discussion.
And like I said, if you want to pretend like things from real life apply here, then I'm pretty sure the gankers have a few choice suggestions too.
Kaarous,
Now this is helpful... I admit I wasn't aware of the "lore" part. So fair that is Concord's role... But as I stated before I am not trying to apply exact real life scenarios... I am sure you can get beyond the words and understand a deeper meaning.
You are welcome to believe what you want and see the world the way you want and this game too... but I believe we can find a middle ground by applying models and themes and other references than just simple binary either/or type solutions. |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 03:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Xaldafax Caerleon wrote: but I believe we can find a middle ground by applying models and themes and other references than just simple binary either/or type solutions. No, we can't. Regardless of whatever model you might want to use, it seems very clear to me that you want less player freedom. That is flatly unacceptable to me.
Wow I guess you really have a complete misunderstanding of my message from the start. I want MORE player freedom... both on the GANKER and NON-GANKER sides.
What part of my "cause and effect" comment was not understood? Hence, why I also followed it up with the comment about applying models, themes, and other references instead of just a yes/no solution.
Freedom needs to be on both sides right now. Actually if we would increase the abilities of those in high-sec to take action toward a ganker PRIOR to his gank, then I think we might have a way to solve the problem. The bounty system needs rework, etc. But there is no reason to get into any of that because if people aren't even able to get my simple message of "cause and effect" and "applying a different model to the problem" then it isn't worth the time to try to explain. |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 05:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Bohneik Itohn wrote:So there are 16 pages to this thread... I'm not reading all of that crap...
Has anyone... Just possibly... Mentioned that it may be safer to go a few jumps through a quiet stretch of low sec than it would be to keep trying to fly freighters through systems like Aufray and Niarja?
How about dem high sec to high sec WH's that can carry freighters? I've scanned a few of those down without even looking for them, they shouldn't be hard to find with a covops frigate and a few minutes. You get to skip the scary bits of space AND cut an hour off of your travel time if you're lucky. It's all win.
I also don't understand the logic behind using a freighter over a transport or blockade runner. It make take several more trips to haul the same volume but you can make those several trips in the same amount of time with a significantly lower chance of losing your ship overall, and you lose significantly less if you do get ganked.... If you're gonna carebear, get it right and minimize the risk as much as possible. If you're going to take risks and fly a giant space whale that attracts everyone's attention, man up and don't cry on the forums when your bluff gets called.
It kind of makes me wish I was the kind of person who could find transporting in Eve entertaining, because I have a feeling I could get filthy rich doing it.... 10,000 M3 in a DST versus 900,000 M3 in a freighter. "several more trips to haul the same volume " ???????
I actually have another thread going on about this - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=352932
I completely agree that there needs to be more scaling on the M3 side before you get into the biggest ships. It isn't like you have to do 1 extra run.. sometimes you have to do many. |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 05:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Haulers do not need any more abilities increased. They have a huge amount of tools and tactics to combat gankers and many of them are very very easy to do. Ganking should not be nerfed even more to protect people from their own greed, lazyness and stupidity.
You segmented my comment specifically to the haulers group which is not what I am talking about. Haulers have many abilities and so do the gankers. So that is not the problem here that I was talking about.
If you look in the thread of my specific comments I am not asking for any nerfs. I am saying that people should have more abilities around the cause and effects of your decisions. People that do criminal actions regularly should be see as that no matter where they are... not have the ability to see in safety until they decide to blow themselves up. Just like people that decide to fly billions around without protection shouldn't get home safe.
The problem is that the mechanics around hostile actions need to be revamped more. Like I said a person we all knew was a FBI most wanted would never survive sitting in a star bucks. He would be taken out long before he could kill someone. He already decided how he wanted to act in society and that decision has a price. In comparison... Just like the rich person that pulls a million dollars out of the bank and has it sitting in a bag open for the world to see in a convertible goes into star bucks to get a latte. He comes back and his bag and the million is gone. Cause and effect.
We need to adjust the model more than the specifics... |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 14:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:\
You segmented my comment specifically to the haulers group which is not what I am talking about. Haulers have many abilities and so do the gankers. So that is not the problem here that I was talking about.
If you look in the thread of my specific comments I am not asking for any nerfs. I am saying that people should have more abilities around the cause and effects of your decisions. People that do criminal actions regularly should be see as that no matter where they are... not have the ability to see in safety until they decide to blow themselves up. Just like people that decide to fly billions around without protection shouldn't get home safe.
The problem is that the mechanics around hostile actions need to be revamped more. Like I said a person we all knew was a FBI most wanted would never survive sitting in a star bucks. He would be taken out long before he could kill someone. He already decided how he wanted to act in society and that decision has a price. In comparison... Just like the rich person that pulls a million dollars out of the bank and has it sitting in a bag open for the world to see in a convertible goes into star bucks to get a latte. He comes back and his bag and the million is gone. Cause and effect.
We need to adjust the model more than the specifics... Just to prove a slight point here: Without Googling or looking, please tell me the name and biographical information of any of the FBI's ten most wanted. Provide enough detail that I could accurately point them out. My point being, the EVE "criminal" system is a hell of a lot more overpowered than RL. People quite regularly get away with going fugitive in the real world. They aren't hiding under a bridge, or hunkered down in a compound out in the woods....they live "normal" lives next to you and me. If we were to advocate a "realistic" law enforcement system, all I'd have to do is commit a crime, escape concord, then move a few systems away where nobody knew my face. Worst comes to worst, I'd edit my API and name (generate a fake identity), and go about my business as usual.
Here is the point you are missing -- tools and technology. If we have more of that then the problem changes or goes away.
Yes a felon can move easily around daily life but there are police and the ability to have a piece of paper with the most wanted list. So while I might not KNOW you are a fellon, if I wanted to be a person that monitors that I could print out the pictures and recognize you and bring you in. You might be able to hide but for people or police that are watching for that thing you cannot get away.
So basically I am saying give people the ability to take back space instead of being hampered and having to WAIT for the gank before action. I see plenty of gankers but I cannot touch them first because I will become a criminal when they are already one because of their actions.
I ask that you get beyond the exact words I am using here and try to understand the theme or underlying message. This problem exists because we are looking at it in a black/white way instead of a multi-dimensional way.
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Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
3
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Posted - 2014.06.18 14:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
So, the only thing stopping you from shooting a non-outlaw ganker is the sec status hit? Honestly, it really isn't that big a deal. See above, I took my +5 alt out, blew up a random miner, and went to 4.8. Nowhere near the -5.0 "criminal" status. As long as you don't pop pods, you can blow up lots and lots of non-outlaw gankers before you even hit -2.0.
Think of it like vigilante justice if that helps. Sure, according to the law, Batman is a Bad Guy, and should go to prison....
And yeah, if they're already blinky, blast away. Free target.
The issue is more than the security status hit. Not all of us have +5 sec status. This is an issue of the design and context of the problem. Not a black and white answer.
Give people more tools in HS to take on people that act like criminals BEFORE they gank. Stop waiting for them start the action and stop them in the 3 seconds before its done and the pop their victim. Allow people more ways to get them earlier.
This is why I use the analogy of the FBI and most wanted list in a normal public place with police around... |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 14:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kalon Horan wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
For what purpose, by the time they warp in the target is already history? And concord are already destroying the gankers One cannot target the scouts haulers etc etc that make it possible as a mechanic.
So how does that inconvinience the gankers in any way?
As stated before... little me alone prevented quite a few suicide kills yesterday by shooting the gankers b4 they can blow up their target. What stops other people to do the same? I can tell you what stops them... they can not fatten their wallet by doing it.
Did you take a security hit for shooting the ganker before they attacked the victim? |
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